Could River Song be the Doctor’s daughter?

I’m still asking myself how the Doctor from the past (AD 102) could save himself from his future by giving the Rory auton the sonic– because a Doctor trapped in the Pandorica wouldn’t have something like a “future”, how could he? He’s trapped in there and that’s just it. End of. Even a handsome time agent’s Vortex Manipulator (if of or off the wrist) couldn’t have helped him out of there – how would he’ve managed to touch it while his hands were captivated?

But what even is more exciting – how did the (slimy) sonic got on the table in the (hidden) room of Amy’s house? Even if the Doctor would have lost it by accident (he never would– would he???) the device hadn’t been found on the table but on the floor. Anyway. I can’t see (by now) where this will lead us, so let’s forget about it. Although… who IS Prisoner Zero? The Doctor???

By now, I can’t really see any connection to the empty duck pond, but ever since Donna’s mentioned the disappeared bees (which is sysonymical for an Earth dying) there has to be a greater context– because Steve Moffat isn’t affiliated to pay attention to or wasting time on such as negligibilities.

And somehow it just came to my strange mind: What if River Song weren’t the Doctor’s future wife nor his mother… but his daughter?!

[ADD: Maybe this already was on discussion. If so, please send a note, I’ll remove my comment at once.]


  1. magsmagenta

    That’s something I hadn’t thought of, what an idea, only she doesn’t refer to him the way I would expect a Daughter would, I wouldn’t have expected a daughter to refer to her father as ‘Sweetie’, or ‘Pretty boy’ I would love to know what happened to Jenny though, The Doctor still thinks she’s dead.

  2. FirstOfTenth

    Yah… me neither (referring to your remarks about River’s nicknames for the Doctor).

    The most likely conclusion still would be she will be his wife, some day. Or at least the love of his life.

    But you know… ever since Moffat’s weird idea of changing the behaviour of the Weeping Angels (once they could only move if you’d even blink – now you’ll have to keep your eyes shut to keep them from moving) I’m not so sure about nothing anymore.

  3. magsmagenta

    You still have to watch them to stop them moving. Amys situation was complicated in that she had a new angel forming on her retina because it had formed an image there, which apparently is how they reproduce, like when the film image came alive, and to stop it she had to close her eyes to cut off the image. Unfortunately this meant when the other angels turned up she couldn’t open her eyes and had to pretend to be able to see to make them to make them freeze.

  4. FirstOfTenth

    Yeah, I’ve got that. Doesn’t mean I’ve found it… fitting… or… conclusive. The original character of the Angels was: Close your eyes or even just blink– and they’re gonna get you. Moffat spoiled this clear and straight plot, IMHO. Suddenly you can dupe them by just pretending to see?!? No, sorry. That’s not evolution (or kinda assimilation, if you’d prefer).

  5. magsmagenta

    You do have a good point, it does seem rather over complicated now, but I did wonder how they reproduced if they froze every time they looked at each other, also the Angels in the basement in Blink, they were left with a lightbulb on but all that had to happen was for the power to go out and they were free again, they were hardly stuck forever.

    Still that’s the whole point of being able to ‘Suspend Disbelief’ It’s so much more fun watching sci-fi and fantasy if you conveniently ignore such things πŸ™‚ unlike my Hubby, who refuses to watch anything which involves time travel because it’s ‘impossible.’ How boring is that?

  6. FirstOfTenth

    … just a bit unlikely πŸ˜€


    And please don’t get me wrong, I’m totally happy with authors like Mofatt, I do like most of the stuff he’s written (not least his latest work, Sherlock)! A world without SciFi/fantasy books or films would be a poor one. Who never read The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy or never saw Star Wars has clearly missed some fantastic stuff.

    Ta ta!


    1. magsmagenta

      That’s an interesting idea, and thinking about it not as easily dismissed as I first thought, after all The Doctor and The Master have known each other since they were children and were once friends. Maybe she was the reason they fell out.

  7. felixtcat

    @the master:

    it can not be the masters wife (mrs lucy saxton) she died during the resurection of the master in “the end of time part 1” 

    I still say the Doctors Daughter jenny is river song, because even tho you here sweety, or whater cute nicknames, it could be a good way to fool him. the only thing that really does not support it being jenny is from the episode in the library when we first met Prof river song, she didnt recognise him in this regeneration and said it must be an earlier regeneration. who I would Love it to be is “Romana II” from “warriors gate” that somehow found her way back to our universe from espace (for the old die hard whovians) rumours of romana and the rani have been online awhile saying they could return, sofar we have had, daleks, davros, cybermen, the master, the timelords, the Silorians, ect. why not romana? or River could also be the timelord from End of time who helped the Doctor in the end with her hands over her face.. PLEASE just not be captian jack with a sex change, then i will be upset

  8. sgreco1970

    I sincerely doubt it would be Captain Jack. If anything, he’s squared away as the Face of Boe. But Jenny? Well it could be but I can’t imagine that either. Besides, River says at their first meeting that he hasn’t met her yet, but The Doctor’s Daughter was 2 episodes prior to Silence.

    Its possible she isn’t “really” anyone. She is River Song, not The Master or anyone pretending to be River. She’s just someone the Doctor hasn’t met yet. But if there’s something about her secrets we would recognize, then here are what I feel are the significant clues.

    1) she claims to have been to the “end of the universe” with the doctor once. The doctor when to the end of the universe in Utopia.

    2) She rouses Amy from her amnesia at the wedding with an fresh, new, empty diary. This may point to her being Amy more than anything else.

    3) She claims someone taught her to fly the Tardis but that day the doctor was “busy,” thus he was not her teacher. Points to perhaps her being a Time Lord.

    Could she be the woman in the End of Time? Possibly, except that she died and was uploaded to CAL in Forests of the Dead. Of course, she could somehow come back from that (as one only can on Doctor Who). She could be Amy, the Pond grown into a River. She could be the Doctor’s mother and that’s how she knew his name. She could be all of these at once, really…

    1. Gerard McGarry

      I love the idea of the two characters – Amy Pond and River Song – being linked by watery-themed names. And of course, The Doctor commented in The Eleventh Hour about the duck pond with no ducks. It seemed like an odd comment to make, especially since it didn’t really have any relevance (that I remember) within the episode.

    1. sgreco1970

      I was thinking she was his mom until the last episode, when she was trapped in the exploding tardis..she said, “I’m sorry, my love.” That’s not what mom’s say. Besides, Moffat was filmed responding “yes” to someone’s question as to whether or not she was the doctor’s wife. He denied anyone could see his lips say “yes” but there it is, clear as day, on film nonetheless.


      the real question is: is she amy pond from the future. I bet she is. Now that Amy has the blank tardis diary,  she will begin to write in it.

      1. ajd

        But then Moffat is misleading and clever, so it’s hard to believe anything he says, even if he appeared to reveal it by accident.

        And as for the diary, the Doctor returned it to River once all the writing had reappeared at the end of Big Bang. That would be a paradox if Amy is River and her diary was given to her by a future self, because that they never actually got it from anywhere (I’m not explaining this very well).

  9. Sean Wilkinson

    there are probly a few timelords who know the doctors real name.

    anyone think maybe its dona noble? in a regeneration somehow? afterall she was a “half human/half timelord” in the episode with the metacrisis doctor. and was made to forget the 10th doctor…

    could also be moffets way to just mess with our heads


    but would love it be Romana II

    like i said great historical characters like davros, brigidere, daleks, timelords, cybermen, sulorians, the master even rasalon. just hope its something good and not a cheap “ok i am riversong.. get over it”

    but i have a feeling the ood have something to do with it, did anyone see the preview for series 6 there looked like a female ood.. SONG/OOD? get it… and she was saying in the ep with the angels i am the one who killed the doctor… and the ood said your Song is ending.. in end of time, the girl in planet of the dead said your song is coming to an end soon.. i just find the name SONG is tied into the ood

  10. sgreco1970

    I’m having some serious problems trying to organize what we know from River in some sort of proper order. For instance, River’s first appearance on DW is the last time she gets to see the Doctor -she then dies and gets uploaded into Cal.

    So, when we see River the second time, this River has not been to the library, hasn’t died, hasn’t had the conversation with the Doctor where she realizes he hasn’t met her yet. I’m trying to recall how that meeting went. She has met him, now, many times before he has “met” her. I’m finding trying to keep it all in order a bit daunting. Also, there’s no reason to believe that they’re are happening for River in the same order they are happening for us. Did the river in appearance 3 predate the 2nd appearance? Anyone have any clues? Can anyone list (more accurately than I could) her appearances and the notable clues from each?

    1. ajd

      Well obviously Silence in the Library was the last meeting. At the crash of the Byzantium she said that the next time they would see her would be when the pandorica opens, which means that the pandorica happened first.

      So the order so far is:

      The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang

      The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone

      Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead

  11. Sean Wilkinson

    maybe she said that because somewhere in her book something big happens in donna nobles life, and maybe the doctor tells river when they 1st officially meet Donna is your grandmother or something.. as famous words of Janeway “Time travel. Since my first day as a starship captain I swore I’d never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes. The future is the past, the past is the future – it all gives me a headache.”

  12. jefft

    River can’t get out of the TARDIS when it explodes.

    She needs the Doctor to save her from the airlock of the Byzantium.

    She has to be shown how to use the TARDIS at some point.


    She’s not his mother or Jenny. (‘You’re younger than I’ve ever seen you’)

    She could be Jack, but like Ianto, Jack is Russells character, and I doubt he’s returning any time soon unless there is a financial need to bolster Torchwood new series with a crossover. Unlikely, after Children of Earth

    She can only be the Rani or the Master if she’s using a Chameleon arch, as otherwise the Doctor would be able to recognise her.

    (Could the 3rd and 4th Doctors detect the other time lords they encountered? I dont recall, but I dont think so, actually..)

    For narrative effect, she shouldnt be anyone we already know.

    If we take Susan as a genuine canon granddaughter, then the first Doctor probably was the one that ‘married’ and had a family.


    Why not wonder about what the ‘other’ TARDIS is (a SIDART?)

    Why there are no ducks in the pond. Why the post office is always closed.

    And (this seems to have been overlooked) why Annette Crosbie’s character says ‘Ive seen you before haven’t I?’ the first time she sees the Doctor.





    1. sgreco1970

      And (this seems to have been overlooked) why Annette Crosbie’s character says ‘Ive seen you before haven’t I?’ the first time she sees the Doctor.

      That’s because she had seen the pictures and toys of Amy had made of the “raggedy doctor.”

      Why there are no ducks in the pond. Why the post office is always closed.

      I think the ducks are either related to the cracks in the universe or this upcoming river story. The post office, however, is always closed because any time you really need the post office its closed lol. I think that bit was just a joke.

  13. Emperor Gregor

    River is hopping about through time, following the Doctor’s time line. Her “diary” can;’t be her own diary. A diary is something you write up events into, as they happen, or just after. When River meets DW the first thing she does is to check with “the diary”. There shouldn’t be anything about their current meeting in it if River was recording the events there. She uses the diary more as a reference book. His whole life is in it, and all the people he has ever been (including the next doctor). So who’s diary is it?

    River said at the Byzantium that the next time she saw the Doctor would be when the Pandorica opened. For the Doctor, that was their next event. For River to know that, she must already have experienced it (somehow), as ajd points out. (a really good observation). We tend to think the events happened in sequence because that’s the order we see them in. They might not be. But … I thought River looked younger in the Weeping Angel’s episode (some neat work with camera filters). She could know about their next meeting because she’d cheated and looked in the “diary”.

    That would mean, of course, that the diary can’t be the Doctor’s. If she cheats and looks up events, she’d know when she was going to die, because it would be in the Doctor’s diary.


  14. jefft

    “There shouldn’t be anything about their current meeting in it if River was recording the events there.”


    What makes yo think there was anything in the diary about the Library at that time?

    Let’s face it.. there couldnt be anything about the Library or anything in River’s future.. she died there.

    So all the meetings she refers to are in her past.

    And since the Doc just met her, they were all in his future.

    Interestingly, River’s interaction with the Doc is unlike nearly every other recurring character.

    Despite (for instance) the Daleks and Cybermen wandering around London in the 1960s, after the ‘Time War’ the Doctor appears surprisd to find them ANY time he steps out of the TARDIS.

    He never encounters older versions of the Daleks.

    If he went back to 1970, the universe should be swarming with Time Lords: he could hop back there if he felt lonely.

    So (suspending disbelief) the Doctors timeline is everybody’s.

    If someone gets old while he is looking at them, theyre old every time he meets them.

    The Daleks and Cybermen evolve and he doesnt meet the version before. (Mind you I hear rumours that Mondas Cybermen may make an appearance in Series 6.5)

    It would make sense for Stephen Moffat to cover a period when River Song meets the Doc for the first time. It would be disingenuous to use Alex Kingston for that, unless their relationship was intense over (say) 10 years of River’s life.

    1. Sean Wilkinson

      Rose and The doctor see a Older version of the cyberman helmet in the Museum where they meet the last Dalek, but I find it funny when Rose and the doctor see the new versions of cybus cybermen she still has no clue what they are. they dont look much diffrent.. just wondering if anyone noticed that also?

      1. Gerard McGarry

        Yeah, I remember that – but it was quite a fleeting glimpse, and it was one artefact in a museum of alien stuff. We remember it as viewers, but would a character remember every item?

        It raises a good question though – if the Cybus Cybermen exist in a parallel universe – what happened to the original race of Cybermen?

    2. Emperor Gregor

      Can’t remember where I read it , but someone has worked out that if the Doctor meets River for the first time, on the last day of her life, then he is meeting her forwards in his time, and possibly backwards in her time. That way, the diary would have everything written up in it as she’s met him lots of time over the years. She ought to be really surprised she has no record of him in the diary. This, it seems, has never happened before

      Which leads to an interesting question. If she remembers their every meeting – how come she doesn’t remember a first one.

      The only answer is that she is not meeting him in sequence down her time line – never has. Every time they meet she has to look up the date – and even which incarnation he is in. 

    1. Gerard McGarry

      I was going to mention that – River has a diary full of details of her meetings with The Doctor, and it’s been implied that they’ve travelled together for a long time. “You’re younger than I’ve ever seen you”, etc. But so far she’s only turned up at memorable occasions, and she’s bouncing all over space and time.

      The other notable point is – she can’t really be one of the bad guys, can she? Because she sacrifices herself to save the people in the library and seems genuinely in awe of The Doctor when he salvages her consciousness from her space suit. There doesn’t seem to be a lingering air of regret or any ambiguity in those scenes.

      Just a couple of thoughts!

  15. Emperor Gregor

    Aren’t they locked in a sort of time vault – taken out of time so Rassilon etc can’t hop around time and try again. And it’s OK and not a paradox because their end is one of those events that fixed in time that can’t be changed. DW has said as much when asked why he can’t go back and stop the destruction of his race. So taking them out of time doesn’t change anything they ever did – or failed to do.

    If you get what I mean.

    1. Gerard McGarry

      Given that the time vault was created by RTD, it’s probably swiss cheesed with holes.

      But didn’t they manage to go back in time and implant that rhythm in The Master’s brain in order to free themselves in The End Of Time? So, there are ways that they can influence events without leaving their temporal prison. I may be getting muddled here.

  16. Emperor Gregor

    No, I don’t think they went back in time. I think they knew what was coming, and how much longer they had before the Doctor destroyed them, so they tried to circumvent their future ie move Gallifrey before its space time location was locked down. Only the Doctor succeeded in stopping them, so his past is as it should be ie no Time Lords. 

    I don’t imagine the Time Lords as ceasing to exist – I imagine them as frozen in time and space at a particular moment.

    Makes your head hurt getting round it, I know.

  17. mi4d34

    ive been reading through your comments and been seeing ones like ” the tardis looking diary is now blank so amy can start writing in it” well no.. because later on, on that same episode the docotor is at his tardis with river song and gives river song back the diary and says ” all the writing is back, but i never peeked” so how could she start writing if A) all the writing is back, and B) river has it.
    i also saw one when they are saying about doughter and mother.. well no i do think it could be wife.. because on that episode river starts asking the doctor ” are you married ” and the doctor is confussed asif she is asking if he is married, or to marry him..
    maybe we should be thinking about these things..
    and i also love the idea of a pond being turned into a river…

    1. Emperor Gregor

      Yes, you’re right about the Diary and the writing. I don’t have the videos so I could only work from memory.

      The other comments about daughter and mother – I think that’s Moffat playing with us.

      I still think the best answer is that River is the Master, and the most fun answer is that River is Amy’s daughter, making Amy the Doctor’s mother in law if he marries River.

  18. mi4d34

    you say alot of timelords know the doctors real name,
    if so..
    why does the doctor say to river ” how do you know my river name, there is only one person i would tell my real name, only one person i could”

  19. mi4d34

    you say alot of timelords know the doctors real name,
    if so..
    why does the doctor say to river ” how do you know my river name, there is only one person i would tell my real name, only one person i could”

  20. mi4d34

    come on guys..
    really think..
    who does the doctor love the most ? ROSE! always thinking about her, and loving her..
    and in the liberary episode the doctor says ” how would you know my real name, there is only one person i could tell”. don’t you think it could be her ?
    and river says all time is mixed up, and rose is in the paralell world, so it will be even more mixed up.
    i think we could have a idea.

  21. mi4d34

    hey guys,
    i have spent about 3 hours thinking on this, and i think i have worked it out! ( if i am wrong i will be devved)!
    i think River Song is rose..
    i think this because;
    1)river song knows the doctors name, and at the liberary episode river whispers the doctots real name into his ear and the doctor comments back with ” why do you know my name, only one person knows my real name, only one time i could tell someone”
    2) river on the big bang episodes starts to ask the doctor if he is married, he replys with ” are you asking ” river says ” yes ” and tries to confuse the doctor with weather she is asking if he is married, or to marry him.
    3) on the angel episode, on the beach river says ” i killed the greatest man, i ever met” we were all to believe its the doctor..

    on rose’s last day, they were on the beach where there was the doctor, donna,rose and the new human form of the doctor.. just before rose goes, she says ” last time you were here, on the worst day of my life you said my name.. how does that sentance end ?” and then the human form of the doctor wispers into her ear saying something..
    what if he wispers his real name..
    Next, we all know the doctor has never loved a companion as much as rose, he is always thinking about her, and loving her and wishing she would come back..
    so yes i think she is the love of his life, and will be his wife..
    finally, when river says ” i killed the best man i have ever met” we all think its the doctor, what if its the human formed doctor, that rose ( river ) has killed, so she can go and find the real doctor and marry him..
    i hope this is all right :)!

    1. Akem

      kill the human doctor to go found the lord of time one, that sound creepy and really bad. But how she will be in prison of our dimension. And how did she became river song?

      I read a lot that Moffat like introduce new characters and others to nourrish the DW mythology so I wonder if River Song is not a totally new kind of characters never seen before. 

  22. Emperor Gregor

    Well … a nice tbeory but how do you account for the different face if a human Rose hasn’t regenerated?  πŸ™

    Also: on Rose’s last day just before Rose goes she says “the last time you were here, on the worst day of my life you said my name … how does that sentence end?  Wasn’t it supposed to end with the Doctor telling her that he loves her? It is certainly what she was waiting to hear.

  23. mi4d34

    yeah, well i suppose your right, but its just a theaory,
    and i was thinking maybe river song is just a person, not amy, rose,donna just someone new.. but then again

  24. mi4d34

    river song kills the best man she had ever met?
    does that mean it has to be the doctor no ? if you were river song and you got shown how to fly the tardis, wouldn’t that be the best man she had ever met ? and that wasn’t the doctor..
    comment back.

  25. mi4d34

    well guys, i’ve just been re-searching, and i have found some things.

    from what i have been reading, this could be the possible story!

    the doctor gets left with a choice, either to kill the earth or the tardis,
    and the doctor chooses to kill the earth, and with that reaction, river kills the doctor…
    but he comes back to life as his normal self ?

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