Doctor Who – A Good Man Goes To War – Episode review – Mid-season finale

It’s time, everyone, for the Battle of Demon’s Run. The mysterious Madame Kovarian has stolen Amy Pond and taken her baby away. And The Doctor is off gathering a rag-tag army of people who owe him favours. He’ll rise further than he’s risen before and fall further. And he’ll also discover River Song’s true identity.

That’s a lot of plot advancement to get through in one episode, but somehow Steven Moffat crams it all in.

If I’m being honest, the whole rescue of Amy from the army of Clerics was a bit messy. Lots of bombastic action pieces, a fun rag-tag bunch of Doctor Who characters and hangers-on fighting on his side. Rory back in his Centurion costume. And ripoff Jedi-esque creations, the Headless Monks, complete with lightsabers. This is the part of Doctor Who that seems to be written predominantly for kids these days – fast-moving sequences that seem to move so quickly to prevent logic catching up with them.

Maybe that’s because Moffat knew that the star attraction tonight was the culmination of the Amy Pond kidnap storyline and the long-awaited “big reveal” of River Song’s true identity.

And on this front, the episode delivered beautifully. Everything finally came together, as prophecied by our fan group member sgreco1970. Allow me to explain:

So, who the hell is River Song?

River Song – spoilers ahoy! – is the daughter of Amy Pond and Rory Williams. *expect stunned silence* She is also the child seen regenerating at the end of Day Of The Moon. And she’s also the astronaut child.

Let’s tie it all together. First up: how did Amy and Rory conceive a Time Lord baby? According to The Doctor, the baby may well have been conceived on their wedding night, as [[TARDIS (Doctor Who)|the TARDIS]] traveled to their honeymoon destination. Although it took the Time Lords millions of years to evolve their abilities, the embryo’s exposure to the space/time continuum has infused her with their abilities.

We discover some of this via flashbacks to the astronaut child – who was human, but incredibly strong if you remember. This is mind bending stuff though: it means Amy shot at her own daughter, and that the child River may have been the astronaut who shot the daughter. Which means that River shot at herself at the lake side. Possibly. My head is reeling from all of this, and once I’ve thought it through, I’ll do a separate post about River Song.

But in a nefarious twist, Madame Kovarian swapped Amy’s baby for a Flesh decoy. Which means that Amy was reunited with her baby and in a cruel twist, Melody was taken away again. And even though Amy’s furious with The Doctor, he’s run off grinning like a loon in the TARDIS, and her child is still missing.

Boggling

Seriously boggling. The Doctor is happy because he knows River is the baby. Ergo (I love that word), if River is alive and well in the future, she must survive.

However, the child astronaut has been wandering around America in the 1960’s. River Song’s story is far from over – we don’t know when Amy will find her, what age she’ll be, whether she’ll have a normal relationship with her mother and father. And she’s got Time Lord capabilities. But we’ll come to that in another post.

Bottom line, in giving us our big reveal, Steven Moffat has raised a ton of other questions. Enormously successful.

Rory and parallels…

Just wanted to point out that Rory was paralleled twice in this episode. First by Amy, who seemed to be describing The Doctor: last of his kind, lived for hundreds of years, etc. But of course it was Rory as the Centurion who waited for 2,000 years outside the Pandorica.

And later on when the Sontaran died and explained to Rory that he wasn’t a warrior, he was a nurse (Rory at that precise moment was a Roman soldier. And he’s a nurse.) Just saying.

Overhyped?

This is the Battle of Demon’s Run. The Doctor’s darkest hour. He’ll rise higher than ever before and then fall so much further.

Those are River Song’s words to Rory. While I love the drama of the statement, I don’t think the episode reflected the highs and lows adequately. When The Doctor ‘rose high’, he was actually being duped by Kovarian. And when he ‘fell’, he simply walked into a room full of injured and massacred comrades. Once he met River again, he flew off with a grin on his face. Not exactly his lowest ebb, was it?

Still, I’m nitpicking. I’ll end this by saying that the reveal with River Song and Amy was by far the best part of the episode. And even if the battle part of the episode was a tad underwhelming, the reveal and subsequent cliffhanger more than made up for it.

Skeletal hand?

Oh yes – how many of you saw the little scene at the end of the credits – a skeleton’s hand clutching a sonic screwdriver as the green light dims? Was it The Doctor? 

And the next episode – when Doctor Who returns – will be titled [[Let’s Kill Hitler (Doctor Who episode)|Let’s Kill Hitler]].

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117 Comments

  1. pirho

    First let me thank all of you who came up with the notion that River is Amy’s daughter.  Now, if the little girl in the suit is River, (although I don’t think they actualy confirmed it) why wouldn’t she recognize herself when she saw her?  She must have the memories of doing all the things she’s done.  And while we are at it who the bloody hell is this woman who kidnapped Melody to start with?  Where does she come from? What grudge does she hold against the Doctor?

    I think the best line was when river was talking to the doctor, about how his name has come to mean The great warrior, and how he started out all those years ago just wanting to explore the galaxy, and instead he has turned into what we see today.  Pissed off so many races, over the years.  I’m surprised Moff didn’t include the Daleks in this episode, he threw everything else at us. 

    One last question, how would river know how to read Gallifreyan?

    1. sgreco1970

      as for “how would river know how to read Gallifreyan?” I think the Doctor, knowing she is ..somehow yet unexplained… part Time Lord, teaches her to carry on the tradition.

      But as for, “why wouldn’t she recognize herself when she saw her?” I think we may have to chalk it all up to, Moffat didn’t quite know who she was until he wrote the episode? After all, at end of season 5 she said the next time they meet it would be for the first time (and if river was the girl in the suit, they did) but added “and I’m sorry, but that’s when everything changes.” And frankly, nothing changed. There’s some pre-planning here and also clearly some making-it-up-as-he-goes-along.

      Then again, the story of the Silents, “silence will fall,” the voice in the tardis and the explosion of the Tardis are all yet unexplained -so maybe there is more to this story yet. We’ll see, I suppose.

      The real groudnwork laid here was the forest referred to in “the only water in the forest is the river.” The young girl who died was met by the doctor as a little girl, and I suspect we’ll see that next half-season. I’m really very anxious to get there but it seems we now have a bit of a wait ahead of us.

      Oh, and, you’re welcome ๐Ÿ˜‰ I was one of the theorizers, tho I also theorized she was Amy grown up, the Tardis entity, and Amy’s mother so whatever lol.

    2. msbeadsley

      There are a couple of big issues I see on the horizon: one is that Amy and Rory (and if I were them I’d be LIVID beyond belief as soon as the shock wore off), entitled as they are to raise their baby their way, might have to undo many, many years of history (both River’s personal and that of anyone she interacted with) to do it. So we have a major “the rights of the few conflict with the needs of the nearless numberless” or something similar hanging over us like that old sword.

      The other issue has to do with what the Omegans (for lack of a better word) and having been conceived by time travelers in the Tardis has done to this baby already. She’s nearly Gallifreyan. Who is the most (only?) qualified person in the universe to raise a Time Lord/Lady baby? Especially if it’s one he’s going to fall in love with? Have a child of his own with? I think we are going to see the Doctor behave as arrogantly as we’ve ever seen him. I am reminded that the Gallifreyans do that whole trial by vortex thing to eight-year olds; rather Spartan about their children, aren’t they? (I’d love correction or any details here; haven’t seen much of the show prior to the #9 revival.) I think maybe Amelia should have been afraid of the box that fell out of the sky and the man who fell out of the box…

      This would also go a ways to explain why River wasn’t more plugged into the whole “It’s my MUM and DAD” thing; if she grew up under the Doctor’s wing with both him and herself estranged from the couple, she wouldn’t have very great expectations about them, would she? She might, actually, look as uncertain as River actually did when she told them she was Melody.

    1. sgreco1970

      because it doesnt need to. It knows the only owner of a TARDIS is a Gallifreyan. Why would you need your own language translated?

  2. pirho

    Another thing just occored to me, if river is part Time Lord, and the child in the astronaut Suit is River, they does this mean river is in her last regeneration?

      1. jefft

        We saw the beginnings of regeneration effect, but no suggestion that she changed at all. Remember jenny..

        Now that we have ganger technology in the mix, what stops the Doc from putting ‘River from the library’ into a ganger body?

         

    1. Gerard McGarry

      I agree with sgreco on this one – this blows River’s story arc right open. We know sooo little about her background, and there’ll hopefully be some value now in finding out more about her – how she grew up, how long she’s known The Doctor, etc.

      But I kind of get your point about her last regeneration – after all, she ‘dies’ in Silence In The Library, doesn’t she? I can’t help but wonder if The Doctor, knowing how important she’ll be in his life now, won’t revisit the Library and find a way to rescue River from CAL’s hard drive.

      1. Emperor Gregor

        There weren;t any bodies. No-one at all.

        When all the other people were uplifted out of CAL I always wondered why the Doctor left River and her friends there.

        XYZ number of people were all in danger from Nashta Nerada and uplifted to the CAL hard drive, just as Donna was. XYZ number of people saved, no survivors. So I had always assumed they were dead. But where are the bodies. So I suppose they must have been moved physically some how and so they could be returned physically when someone worked it all out.

        But now the Doctor has realised who River is going to be to him. And he has realised too, that she has Time Lord powers. That means she sacrificed all her future regenerations so he could have his. 

        He isn’t, surely, going to be able to let it go at that. Of course he’s going to want to get her out of that library. He owes her hugely,

        1. msbeadsley

          I think the difference was that all the folks CAL saved earlier, she saved bodily; not sure how that works, except it’s transporter tech. River and her crew all died a body death, and all that got saved was a mental pattern. At least that’s what I gleaned. I think River died the true death in the Library.

          HARRY POTTER (5) SPOILER

          HARRY POTTER (5) SPOILER

          HARRY POTTER (5) SPOILER

          HARRY POTTER (5) SPOILER

          I am reminded of Sirius Black in Harry Potter, and how much online fandom SO wanted him resurrected somehow in a later book. But I felt as if that would be a bad lesson and bad writing. People die. If you loved them, you mourn, and then you go through the excruciating but healthy process of knitting your life back together so that the hole they left doesn’t let rotten things into it. I think our Doctor realizes that; most all his memories of River include how, the first time HE met HER, she died to save him. (It’s a lovely and painful symmetry: kill him on one end of your life, save him on the other. It’s like they end each other; what a love story, a la Romeo & Juliet!) And besides, we know River regenerated at least once; and I think we have no idea how old SHE was in the Library: there is functionally no limit to how many River/Doctor stories we have yet to see.

  3. Emperor Gregor

    Anyone ever seen a movie called Last Suppers? It’s about a group of friends who decide that if someone had only killed Hitler the world would have been a better place. So they invite really obnoxious people they think might have influence and be potentially dangerous round to supper. There, they try to change their views. If they fail, they kill their victims and bury them in the rose garden. Only it all goes wrong in the end. Actually, I think they manage to poison themselves by mistake.

    Anyway – what if the title is about someone trying to rewrite time. Either the Doctor – not his style at all – or someone trying to kill the Doctor, who they see as a villain. Or just someone else.

    1. Gerard McGarry

      Brilliant episode title, I don’t think there’s been a Doctor Who title like it in years. It’s always “Something of the something” or “The Something Something”. Let’s Kill Hitler sounds fun!

      Although I’m intrigued about where it’s going to pick up the story – is this going to be a case of moving immediately to another self-contained episode like Curse Of The Black Spot or will it feature The Doctor finding Baby River?

      1. msbeadsley

        I saw ‘Inglourious Basterds’ only recently. I almost feel as if Let’s Kill Hitler speaks to that. (I wasn’t thrilled with the movie.) OF COURSE we’d all love to go back in time and prevent the Holocaust, and/or all those combat deaths and maimings and cripplings. AH was the most evil (imo) historical figure ever. But you can’t change history without changing the later then, the now, and the future. I’ve never understood how the Doctor sometimes breezily changes EVERYTHING, and other times stands by in agonized paralysis and changes NOTHING; it’s a Time Lord thing, we’re told. Well, it’s one of my least favorite tropes in the DW universe, while I understand it’s probably indispensible to the writers…

        I’m guessing this is going to be the Doctor’s answer to Amy and Rory’s agonized plea/demand that he fix things and give them back their baby right NOW; would they (we) be willing to undo all of River Song as we’ve known her to give her infant self back to her parents? (How many babies won’t be born if the war doesn’t happen; there were an AWFUL lot of wartime hookups.)

        I think Moffat has his faults, one of them being over-reaching story arcs; but I think he has as good a head for time travel conundrums as I’ve ever seen (and I’d guess it has something to do with him having practiced them in his head and on paper since way before he actually got to write for DW).

  4. Emperor Gregor

    Moffat has said that it’ll be interesting how many babies have been in that cradle. 

    The Doctor’s reaction to it is amazing. River holds his hand over the mobile and she doesn’t SAY who she is. the doctor FEELS it. That’s why Amy has to ask what it was River revealed. He doesn’t just react as though he is relieved that River is the missing baby therefore all will be well. He says something like, “you and I, we ….” and he makes kissy kissy faces. That’s when the true nature of his relationship dawns on him – or rather is revealed to him in a Time Lordy way.  The Doctor’s reaction is spectacular. He looks like a new dad. I think “sees” that River is a significant other to him, and that he and River have a baby, and it ends up in that cradle.

    1. msbeadsley

      I thought River had just told him she was PREGNANT, actually. Via an act he hasn’t been part of yet. I saw the end of the ep first (happened upon it streaming just then, but no worries: I was already absolutely convinced River was both Amy’s baby and the astronaut suit girl) and thought it then, and thought it when I saw the episode from the beginning. Maybe the mobile reacted to River’s pregnancy? I thought his reaction was more than just finding out baby girl Pond/Williams was gonna be fine; it was that PLUS something that made him want not only to gussy himself up for what he suddenly realized was at least sort of a Time Lady, but also made him preen like the cock of the walk.

      1. Emperor Gregor

        Oh yes. You are perfectly right of course. It explains River’s excitement at the start of the Impossible Astronaut. It explains the slap and the “where does that leave us then” comment. Here is is, I;m sure, pregnant by a man who she hasn’t slept with yet and who has no idea of it.

        When? Especially in the light of his first kiss being her last. Was she pregnant in Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon when she was feeling sick?

        It has huge implications. Would she kill him, programmed to or not?  Was she pregnant at Amy’s wedding when she said that she is sorry but when he meets her again everything changes? 

        1. msbeadsley

          I thought the slap had to do with the fact that he had stopped running (sealing young River’s fate to be a murderer); and to add insult, he invited her to watch. While I got the feeling he had very human, lonely, fearful, sad motives for the invite, I think he also hoped that the crew would figure out a way to accomplish what his death was supposed to (whatever that was; I’m inclined to agree with an earlier poster who suggested it frees young River somehow) without him having to, you know, die. (So we have the next six episodes laid out already). I have to go back and watch the season openers, because I keep wondering how River and the little girl in the suit were in the same place at the same time without the universe at least shuddering…

          Or perhaps it did?

  5. Emperor Gregor

    Some people have spotted that occasionally the doctor is in a red bow tie, and sometimes in a black one, and speculated that there might be 2 time streams running through the series.

    Has anyone been keeping a log of these so that we know when the Doctor is in each of these ties? I don’t have a full set of recordings for this series. 

    1. msbeadsley

      Interesting. I have all of Ten and Eleven on the DVR; now you’ve given me an excuse to go back and watch all of Eleven yet again and take notes. It’s not like I have anything better to do until September…

      1. Emperor Gregor

        Can’t wait to see what you come up with. I have been sure for some time there are two doctors floating around. And I will stick my neck out again and say I think there’s a strong possibility the doctor in the Pandorica is 1103. This production team doesnt make much in the way of continuity mistakes and the doctor’s jacket shoulders are raggedy when he is dead and lying on the ground when he is “killed” in the museum BUT they are smooth before he is shot and AFTER the shot (in which we see his skeleton shape) but BEFORE he drops to the floor. As if there was some sort of switch in the few seconds when they were disttracted by the assassin. 

        If jefti is right about the bow ties, then the subtlety that comes up with that sort of continuity needs to be taken note of when we spot other continuity “mistakes”. We were shown to be right about the jacket/no jacket “mistake”, with 2 doctors looking after Amy in the Forest when she had an Angel in her eye.

        1. sgreco1970

          There’s more than 2 bow ties. Sure, we’ve seen a red and a black tie, but there are several of the black ones -check the closeups, they have different prints and textures on them.

          1. Emperor Gregor

            Why not? After all, he changes his shirt now and then and we haven;t been commenting on that. 

            On the other hand we expect him to have a wardrobe full of shirts and a regular supply of clean ones. We don;t expect a wardrobe full of ties. Not nearly identical ones anyway. 

    2. jefft

      Last night was definitely Red.

      Ive been shouting about two doctors running around since episode 1, hope I’m right.

      Wasnt it odd that the Doc wasnt seen greeting any of his ‘old friends’ into the TARDIS? Could just have been filming schedules, but the shot of the TARDIS door opening on Dorium had all the stylings of not even being the real TARDIS.

      The shadow on the wall was only recognisable by the bow tie.

      1. Gerard McGarry

        The scene between Rory and River in the Storm Cage was quite revealing. Rory raised the possibility of there being two Doctors, and River responded that that was “a whole other birthday”. So it’s very possible that the Flesh Doctor is going to be returning at some point.

        What I don’t understand is the red/black bow tie obsession. Didn’t the Flesh Doctor and the Real Doctor have the same colour of bow tie in The Almost People?

        1. Emperor Gregor

          Didn’t the Flesh Doctor and the Real Doctor have the same colour of bow tie in The Almost People?”

          So if there are 2 doctors already running about, in 2 different bow ties, and if the flesh doctor does return somehow – that makes 3. I am veering ever so slightly back to the idea of 3 doctors running around. 

          Can’t wait to hear the bow tie analysis. It might be revealing or it might bring the whole theory crashing down, but either way, the results will be revealing.

          1. msbeadsley

            Since the ganger version was a (perfect?) copy of the Doctor, down to the shoes which the original later had to swap due to an acid puddle, I’d expect the ties to be identical…

      2. Emperor Gregor

        I agree that there are two doctors running around. In fact, if there’s two in two different bow ties, then I can think of a scenario where there’s a third.

        Rory complete with Cameleon arch. He’s downplayed and he’s got such a strong moral core. But I am mulling over another idea about Rory and why he might be in hiding so deep he doesn’t remember who he is.

        1. Gerard McGarry

          No, I don’t believe Rory’s a Time Lord, Doctor or otherwise. If he was a disguised version of The Doctor, then he’d have fathered the child who he later becomes romantically entangled with. The Time Lords may be aliens, but incest is stretching it a bit!

          If you thought he was a different Time Lord, with a Chameleon Arch, there’s no guarantee he’d be a morally solid citizen. The Time Lords were largely a douchey, haughty race when not churning out mentalists like The Master and The Rani.

    1. msbeadsley

      That’s amazing, thanks for sharing! I know a few writers (mostly fantasy and science fiction, actually), and I think the inside of their heads are very wibbly wobbly and also timey wimey. Nothing ever gets thrown out, and it’s ALL material. That’s the answer, by the way, to their least favorite question: Where do they get their ideas? EVERYWHERE.

      Now I’m off to check out Moffat’s pre-Who career…

  6. sgreco1970

    Ok something else I must know.

    why would ANYTHING relevant to river be written on the cradle in gallifreyan if it was the Doctor’s?

  7. sgreco1970

    Ok, consider THIS!

    River has been programmed by eyepatch witch to kill the Doctor. After all, she’s the “weapon” created to fight him!

    And so, she does… The Doctor is the “good man,” as we learned from this episode, and River kills a good man. She does as she is programmed…right there on the shore in Arizona. She kills the man she thinks is the Doctor –his ganger -and this breaks her programming. She’s free. Oh, and her older self is there and shoots at her younger self but can’t kill her because of the paradox and remembers doing this as a child, as though the memory were hidden or suppressed until just then. Then, realizing she would naturally be unable to kill her younger self, she mutters, “of course…”

    She slaps the Doctor when she sees him next because she DOES remember being a little girl and being told to kill this man and goes to prison for it, altho it breaks her programming and “saves” her. And for all that, and having to witness it a second time, she gives him a well deserved smack.

    She is the daughter of one of the Doctor’s companions and (somehow) part Time Lord AND a “manchurian candidate” programmed to kill the Doctor after finding him using Time-Lord-iness (which is why she had to be a time lord). That covers the “who and what you are” spoken by Father Octavian, of the same military / clerical order we saw in this episode.

    eh? What do you think?

    1. msbeadsley

      I’m pretty sure that is indeed River. And it seems to me, to, that there is some problem with her memory (maybe having to do with crossing her own timeline? Or maybe she really doesn’t have much memory of herself inside the suit). But I think she slapped the Doctor because, if he hadn’t stopped running, her child self would not have been able to kill him. And I don’t think it was the Ganger Doctor who died. We have a hundred years or two still ahead of the Doctor in today’s episode, but I think that two hundred years later (subjective time for him), he dies. I think that is the culmination of the speech River aimed at him about how the whole universe learned to fear him. He has to die, and be really dead, for the universe to breath a sigh of relief. I don’t know how they continue the franchise after that, but I’m sure they’re up to the challenge. (I would expect, rather, that the Ganger Doctor picks up where the other left off, actually, to underscore the message that The Almost People kept trying to make: there is no such thing as Almost. Everybody is people. And, if, as I suspect, River was telling the Doctor at Demon’s Run that she was pregnant, who knows what will happen THERE?)

      I am also convinced that the spaceman the little girl said was coming to eat her wasn’t in a spacesuit; she was talking about the Doctor. That could have been eyepatch woman’s conditioning, but, in a way, he did eat her life. Not that she ended up minding, mind you…

      1. Emperor Gregor

         I think that is the culmination of the speech River aimed at him about how the whole universe learned to fear him. He has to die, and be really dead, for the universe to breath a sigh of relief. “

        I have thought right from the start that Moffat is going to get around that one.My first thought, even when he died, was that the Doctor has somehow rigged it up to make the universe think he was dead when he isn’t.

        I don’t think that now. ButI do think it possible there are 2 doctors and one of them has to die to bring the universe back to normal. The question is which one, and will he keep a lower profile afterwards.

      2. sgreco1970

        “I don’t know how they continue the franchise after that, but I’m sure they’re up to the challenge”

        Naw. I would never ever expect them to kill the real doctor and replace him with the ganger and think they can carry on the series. I don’t think that thought will ever, ever cross the minds.

        1. pirho

          Perhaps, it isnt the doctor that we see get killed.  Moff seems to like these gangers, maybe this is one of the doctors gangers.

    2. Emperor Gregor

      Have you read Bujold? (my user name is one of her creations)

      The hero (not Gregor) is from a powerful family and spends a couple of books setting up 2 lives – one as an insignificant courier and an alter ego who runs around the universe at the heat of an army. They use the notion of a “clone” to cover the fact they look identical. Then they discover there is a real clone out there, who was raised by his enemies to infiltrate the family and wipe them out.

      But the clone hates his (awful) life and does a runner. 

      Lots of possibilities to develop the idea of a Doctor clone/look alike. One is the idea that when the universe cracked there were 2 doctors and 2 time streams. I think jefti has something there. Especially if the only way to finally seal the gap is to kill one of the doctors.

       

      1. msbeadsley

        Absolutely. Read about the quaddies in Falling Free when it was published in (I think it was) Asimov’s and became a fan of Miles’s in The Mountains of Mourning. Can’t believe what happens at the end of the most recent Miles book; so sad!

        Part of what I’ve guessed about River comes from having read The Time Traveler’s Wife, which Moffat has said inspired him to write River’s character. It’s a good read aside from that as well. (Author is Audrey Niffenegger.)

          1. msbeadsley

            Left comments. And now I’m trying to figure out why I haven’t already read Her Fearful Symmetry; thanks for the reminder, and now I’m off to my library queue!

        1. Emperor Gregor

          What happens at the end of the latest Miles book is a major changer. He’s going to turn into his father. I want Ivan to feature in a book.

          I’m saving the Time Traveller’s wife. Partly because I’m up to my ears in a dissertation (skiving this weekend) and partly I’m waiting for the grand finale. It’s sitting there on my shelf.

          1. Emperor Gregor

            Definitely. Ivan has Hidden Depths. Cordelia thinks he is the most sensible of the family, by making it clear a) isn’t in the running and b) would be an awful emperor if he did. I want him to get sent back to the Dendarii as a liaison officer, and show what he is made of in the firing line. But he won’t. They are, alas, well gone, I fear. 

          2. Emperor Gregor

            Sorry, No, I was responding to an old thread about Bujold. This thread is now so long I’m getting lost in it. Hope we get a new one for the new season soon. Do we have a thread for Let’s Kill Hitler yet? Have you seen the trailer on the BBC page at http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00jthfd

            The Guardian link was good. Crop circles? Do you think it’s the Daleks who are back, when Moffat said he lied? I’m still willing to bet the whole thing goes back to the Pandorica which is why they will be back.

          3. Gerard McGarry

            Sorry folks, I was actually AT the screening the other night, but got talked into putting my spoilers post on Unreality’s Primetime site here. I’ll try and create something here tonight when I get a minute ๐Ÿ™‚

            As for the Daleks returning, well I’d take that with a pinch of salt. All I remember seeing is a brief glimpse of a Dalek followed quickly by a Cyberman – one of them got blown up, I’m not sure which. To be fair, it might be no more than a simple cameo or a fleeting appearance. I didn’t see anything to suggest they played any major role in the forthcoming episodes.

            Unlike the Silence, which we discover a little bit more about. Not a species, more of a…well, spoilers.

  8. jefft

    What is the line from the last series which took on greater significance? Did I miss it?

    What is the big mistake that Rory almost made?

    Didnt look much like the highest the Doctor had ever risen.

    Red bow tie again?

    2 gay agendas in one episode.. been missing for a while.

     

    That girl:

    ‘She must be incredibly strong’: That doesnt sound like River as we know her…

     

    I thought the spitfires and Pirates were pointless. Could have been big cheery moments but they were literally throw aways.

     

    1. sgreco1970

      “What is the line from the last series which took on greater significance? Did I miss it?”

      -to what are you referring?

      “Didnt look much like the highest the Doctor had ever risen.” No, and the whole episode felt like an epilogue, really.

      “2 gay agendas in one episode.. been missing for a while.” Yes, and its return was much appreciated.

      “I thought the spitfires and Pirates were pointless. Could have been big cheery moments but they were literally throw aways.” Aw, I liked it. I thought it was fun, but yes definitely underused potential. Again, another episode that could’ve played out in a two parter with more spotlight time on everyone.

      1. jefft

        Many people given a preview of the episode had this kind of comment: (this exact comment from ‘Combom’)

        “A line from last season becomes very important.”

        And while I’m here, see these comments by SM in Dr Who magazine production notes:

        “The calamitous and, frankly, shocking events at the climax of episode seven will still be ringing in your ears when Doctor Who returns in the autumn for a further six episodes.”

        “You’ll see The Doctorโ€™s life change forever. You will gasp at the true nature of his relationship with Amy and cry out in horror as Rory Williams stumbles to the brink of a tragic mistake.”

        …”the frankly appalling revelation concerning the one person in the universe the Doctor trusts the most” …”It is an enormous, game-changing cliffhanger for The Doctor, Amy and Rory. It’ll change everything for them.”

        “You’ve seen more than you thinkโ€ฆ The Doctor has noticed what you have not. When the biggest jaw-dropping twist finally comes โ€” well, the second one, you’ll realize you’ve known about it from the very beginning.”

        1. sgreco1970

          hmm ‘ll have to think about it but the most likely was River’s final line in big bang about “and I’m sorry but that’s when everything changes…” which I still don’t get in context to what we’ve now seen transpire.

          Of course, there’s still the mystery of the lodger. Someone here once referred to the ship atop the flat as a TARDIS and I said it wasn’t -well, upon rewatching it, i realize I was wrong. The Doctor says its a “time ship” and then says, “someone’s trying to build a TARDIS.” I also noticed that the faceless computer that kept trying to find a “pilot” kept saying, “help me,” to everyone he lured in. Well, when we see River in the spacesuit, the only thing she says, ever, is “help me, please somebody help me.” And maybe that’s the line but not one that’ll pay off yet, to be sure. Maybe there’s a connection. maybe River was meant to be the pilot of the Tardis the Silents were building, they needed a Time lord after all and we know she sort of is one. But maybe she wasn’t time lordy enough and she was being used to lure the doctor? I don’t know. I think there’s much to explain between The Lodger and the Silents, and I sure hope we get one really good explanation.

          As far as “…’the frankly appalling revelation concerning the one person in the universe the Doctor trusts the most” …”It is an enormous, game-changing cliffhanger for The Doctor, Amy and Rory. It’ll change everything for them.”‘

          I’m pretty sure that means the end of Almost people. As does: “You’ve seen more than you think… The Doctor has noticed what you have not. When the biggest jaw-dropping twist finally comes – well, the second one, you’ll realize you’ve known about it from the very beginning.”

          So I think Combom is a bit behind.

          1. pirho

            Yeah It was me that said it was a TARDIS.  As for River, everything did change now.  We are all assuming that the change will be for the worse.  But ow the whole relationship as far as the doctor sees it, has changed!  He know knows who river realy is, what she and him are meant for.  

             

            Also River said she killed a good man, and the story was a good man goes to war, again, we are assuming this means the Doctor, but what if it is Rory?  Kiled by his own daughter?  And what happens to amy?  Why would she kill rory?

          2. Gerard McGarry

            There’s been a lot of obfuscation between Rory and The Doctor, particularly in that scene where Amy tells Melody about her father being the “last of his kind”. I remember my jaw dropping during those scenes until I made the connection to Rory as the Last Centurion.

            So yes, every possibility that Rory might be the victim. And did you notice she seemed unusually emotional when he came to her in the Storm Cage?

          3. jefft

            >>And did you notice she seemed unusually emotional when he came to her in the Storm Cage?<<

            I imagine that if I came face to face with my father, who has been dead since I was 14, and I knew beyond all doubt that it was him, I’d be pretty emotional too. Rory’s going to die in her past when she’s younger.

            In rory’s timeline, the last time she saw him, she’d had a chace to come to terms with meeting him in the corridor like that.

            If that logic holds, there isnt much time left for Rory, or she’d have spent more time with him in her past, his future, and she’d have been more sanguine. 

            But Rivers timeline is not strictly ‘opposite’ the Doctors/ Rorys, (seen the filming clips from the end of the series where she’s back close to her ‘ Time of Angels’  point in time. )

          4. sgreco1970

            yeah sorry, pirho, I eat crow on that one.

            I think the Good Man is the Doctor. I think River in the spacesuit kills him and goes to prison as she promises…the real Doctor.

          5. Emperor Gregor

            “help me, please somebody help me.”  and

            …’the frankly appalling revelation concerning the one person in the universe the Doctor trusts the most” .

            Another thought on that one. River tells Ten that she is going to be the person he trusts most in all the world, and then whispers his name. In A Good Man Goes To War, Eleven asks who she is and she tells him (we seem to agree) 2 things.

            Firstly, “I am Melody. I am your daughter”. We assume that is true?

            Secondly, she seems to hint she is pregnant. What if you are right. What if the Silents need a Time Lord to run a Tardis. What if, then, Melody wouldn’t be Time Lord enough. And what if they can;t get a single cell of Time Lord, because he is the last and they can’t get at him – they don’t even consider trying he is so feared. What if the plan is to get the baby, which will grow into Melody, whose mission is then to befriend the Doctor and grow them a little Time Lord.

            Lordy Lordy. What a falling off would be there. 

          6. sgreco1970

            Yeh lemme tell ya, when the realization first hit that River was the baby and that she was “a weapon to fight the war against the Doctor” I thought…of course; how best to bring down the Doctor? Not with a gun. Any Cyberman can shoot him. Daleks can shoot him. You do NOT steal a woman, control her brith, steal the baby, use silents to takeover an entire world to build a NASA space suit and make Nixon look silly (though that’s a side benefit) just to shoot the Doctor. You create a woman whom he will love, deeply, and then betray him, comprimise him, make him docile, dispel the oncoming storm. You marry him off and hide him away and have her convince him that he’s been a bad, bad man and needs to remove himself from the scene. And that’s what she’s doing, isn’t it….

            But then again, I don’t think its going to play out that way. I think, well i hope, they know we have an enormous emotional investment in River now, after 3 years. I think perhaps she is the single most accepted companion and romantic partner for the Doctor in the show’s history. I knew plenty who didn’t like Romana. I’ve seen people whine about Sarah Jane, even. And there were manty who got very tired of Rose. But I have yet to hear one single word spoken against River Song. She is the perfect foil for the Doctor, and played by Alex Kingston, she is 100% the perfect personality. I think Moffat aught to be very careful how he proceeds with this. but I really don’t see it going down this way. I think..well, read below and find my latest response to jefft. What I think is there.

            But wasn’t River so right? The entire episode, from start to finish, was all him. Why were the priests and the headless monks (whom I was so glad to finally see) even on that space station? To fight the Doctor. Why were their opponents their? the protect the Doctor. Why was being kept Amy there? To fight the doctor. The entire event was centered around the Doctor. And he has been getting people killed. A lot. There’s definitely some truth in what she says.

            Time…will tell.

        2. Emperor Gregor

          I don;t think this is about physical battles and winning and losing them.

          I think it’s all about hubris – violating the gods by taking on the mantle of their powers. We got a taste of it in Waters of Mars, when Ten began to realise he had gone too far, but I think Eleven has a huge fall still to come, psychologically.

          He said at the Pandorica that it was built to house the most feared being in the universe, a goblin, a monster who destroys worlds, and he hadn;t realised he was talking about himself. Eleven has won the battle of Demon’s Run and lost the war to rescue Melody, and River has told him a few home truths about who he is turning into, but I don’t think he has taken it on board yet. I think the rise and fall is yet to come. I think partly that’s why he’s going to die. Look at his body language. It’s submission to execution for something he accepts he has done. Though I think there;s more to it than that, because I think somehow allowing himself to be executed will serve a higher purpose and will achieve something. (like reuniting the universe or executing a part of himself he doesn;t like any more).

          Do you know what the battle of Demon’s Run reminds me of – James T Kirk’s Kobayashe Maru test. He cheated by altering the terms of the test because he didn;t believe in a no win scenario. ‘so he never faced death until after the death of his son and even more importantly after the death of Spock. He felt old. He had to work through all of that until he finally could say he felt young again. 

          The Doctor has a few personal demons to work through. He is now coming face to face with who he is and how other people perceive him. I don’t think he’s fully taken that on board yet. I think he’s going to think he’s conquered worlds, later on, and rise so so high, and then see into himself and not particularly like it, and fall so so far.

          I think it’s going to be sad, and noble and a whole box of tissues. 

        3. Emperor Gregor

          …”the frankly appalling revelation concerning the one person in the universe the Doctor trusts the most” ..”

          River, Amy and Rory talk about this after 1103 dies. Who has the fourth invitation – the person the Doctor trusts most in all the world – himself.

          If there are two doctors running around out there as Jefft thinks, what on earth has the other one been up to!!!!

        4. Emperor Gregor

          …”the frankly appalling revelation concerning the one person in the universe the Doctor trusts the most” ..

          River, Amy and Rory talk about this after 1103 dies, and they wonder who the fourth invitation is to. It would be the person you trust most in all the world. And 909 turns up, saying he was invited.

          If jefft is right and there are 2 doctors running around, what on earth has the other one been up to?

          1. jefft

            First, any idea why everything you post shows up twice? ๐Ÿ™‚

            Its like reading the script of Top Gun…

             

            But here’s the question:

            It looks like the Doctor is heading for a situation where he is seen to be dead so that he can escape his pursuers. Since ep 1, thats been looking like a ganger. Let’s assume its not that simple. Let’s assume Canton Stir Fry the third is right when he says it is the Doctor who dies.

            Why?

            So that the universe can see he is dead. So that he can work icognito. I dont know why yet, but assuming that to be the case…

            A) Why get shot in front of 4 people in the middle of nowhere, on Earth, instead of in the Galactic Hub, surrounded by 3 million Judoon or Daleks?

            B) The Master came back from that, but badly. Just maybe the cliffhanger at the end of the series is ‘The Doctor is dead, now what?’

            But here’s something else, and I don’t like the sound of this one:

            Karen Gillan quote:

             I actually would really like to go home to Scotland for a little while and reflect on what has happened and then decide what my next move is, but I donโ€™t know what that is yet.”

            Matt Smith quote:

            โ€œIโ€™m going over to Los Angeles this week to dip my head in the pond,โ€ Matt reveals. โ€œI am going to be having loads of meetings with film people and that sort of stuff”

            You dont suppose that they have cancelled series 7?


          2. Emperor Gregor

            No idea why everything turns up twice. It doesn’t seem to on the blog page. No idea why anything might get emailed twice.

            Combom said on March 19 that he is going back to film series 7.

            See http://www.combom.co.uk/2011/03/matt-smith-for-series-7-of-doctor-who.html

            He has a 3 year contract with a 2 year option so there’s bound to be a series 3. I doubt if Amy and Rory will be in it, though. They have a baby to raise. Or not, in which case they won’t feel like jaunting. 

            I think the question we all want to know is if River Song is going to be jaunting along with him. Personally I would love to see it, but that’s nice stuff  – sweet even  – with the family unit of Doctor and the love of his life exploring the universe, with sprog in tow. Moffat doesn’t do sweet. Moffat has said the truth is very dark. The more I think about it the more I think that River’s identification as Melody is the tip of the iceberg. I think it’s going to end rather badly for everyone all round.

          3. sgreco1970

            I think the Doctor is faking his death, yes, but not from the universe at large per se.

            After all, who witnessed his death? Canton? River? Rory? …Amy’s Ganger sent there by eyepatch lady who wanted the Doctor dead; who engineered River in the spacesuit to kill him?

            And that’s exactly what she got to see through Amy’s eyes.

            That’s the upshot of the entire scene, IMO. Canton is brought in to make certain Amy-spy thinks “that is most certainly the doctor and he is most certainly dead.”

            I know that Doctor Who is the BBC’s number one rated show right now, certainly in America. The American version (sadly) now contains a 30 second explanation of what Doctor Who is at the start of every episode. Why? because the BBC hoped this season would bring an entirely new audience to Doctor Who? I doubt that’s just so they can go buy old DVDs. I think we’re seeing the beginning of Doctor Who, not the end. They won’t be cancelling the series anytime soon.

            However, it may be the end for Amy and Rory. Their story really is nearing a close. Time for the Doctor to have a new companion, and we all hope its the young River Song so we can actually witness their adventures and romance. We’re seeing how it began, and we’ve already seen how it ended. What we haven’t seen is their relationship in its full flower, in its heydey. Give me that for a good 3 or 4 seasons ๐Ÿ˜‰

            So, maybe Karen is wondering what she’ll be doing next, and we may even see, if Matt gets snatched up by hollywood which I wouldn’t count on (they’re very fickle and he’s quite young) the Doctor regenerate and we get a new Doctor. Maybe a kinder, gentler Doctor. Maybe River is right, perhaps its time to end the “oncoming storm” who slaughters thousands of Cybermen to make a point but its not the end for the Doctor.

            If its his ganger, then its simple. If its actually him, then they use the method they used to bring back the Master or even yet another one. Maybe he comes back as Matt, maybe someone new but the Doctor will always be back ๐Ÿ˜‰

             

          4. msbeadsley

            That would tie in nicely with River’s Rule #1: ‘The Doctor lies,’ wouldn’t it? Hmmm. Going to be delicious, I’m sure, however they work it out. (I can’t see them ending the series with it as popular as it is, either.)

             

            I hate Amy’s voiceover at the beginning of each ep of Series 6. It seems to me, actually, to be a sinister indication that something about this season is “off.”

  9. redblu

    I was a little more unsure about this episode…. well that’s not true, I was loving every moment but there are aspects I feel I should dislike, it was a thrilling experience but it almost felt like a guilty pleasure.

    The episode raced around from location to location, many elements remaining unexplained. This is evidenced with the spitfires in space, which along with the supposed “gay agenda” is a big middle finger at all the fans who’ve been complaining. Now to be fair I have no problem with that, especially not shying away from having gay characters (the more that is done to annoy those homophobic “fans” the better), but the spitfires on the other hand made no sense in context, how on earth did they get there?

    The Sontaran lactation joke seriously couldn’t have been more RTD cringe stuff if it tried… there’s lots of reasons it should have grated on me… but I laughed.

    At the end of the day it was creepy, it flowed well and Matt Smiths performance was absoultley superb (as was Arthur Davils for that matter). Every one of the characters was unique, memorable and well fleshed out, even in the little time available.

    The core plot was very strong, the idea of the Doctor having brought about the creation of his own enemy. For me the reveal of River Song wasn’t that she was Amy’s baby, many people had guessed that already (it was one option I’d considered, although admittedly dismissed due to the girls ability to regenerate), but that she was manipulated to become the weapon to defeat the Doctor.This is also interesting because it is the clerics from forest of the dead who are behind this, if the man she killed, the greatest man she knew was the Doctor, then why would they imprison her for doing her job? It pains me to say this but I don’t think she killed the Doctor, I’m currently leaning towards Rory.

    I also don’t think we’ve seen the Doctor fall yet, I think the army he raised was him reaching new heights, but the fall to new depths is yet to come.

    All in all I enjoyed it, but it was a guilty pleasure, much like the series 1 and 2 finales. To my mind this was Moffats second worst written story on a technical level, but it was also some of the most fun I had all season.

    1. Emperor Gregor

       it is the clerics from forest of the dead who are behind this, if the man she killed, the greatest man she knew was the Doctor, then why would they imprison her for doing her job? It pains me to say this but I don’t think she killed the Doctor, I’m currently leaning towards Rory.”

      I think Rory is a better candidate. But if the Clerics are a) behind this and b) imprisoning River for killing “a good man” – then why would they care? Rory is allied to the Doctor. An enemy.



      1. redblu

        …that would be patricide, how many religious orders, albeit military religious orders, would look kindly on one of their order committing such an act.

         

        And I meant from flesh and stone, not forest of the dead. Oooops! Sorry.

    2. sgreco1970

      “it is the clerics from forest of the dead who are behind this, if the man she killed, the greatest man she knew was the Doctor, then why would they imprison her for doing her job?”

      -insufficient data hehe.Maybe this notion of the Gamma Forest being “heaven neutral” comes into play? We just can’t know. This is the same clerical order, they bear the same alpha-omega symbol but who is to say if there are various sects? Time will tell.

      As for homophobes being annoyed at more gay characters I can only say that the comfort level of bigots concern me as much as they concern themselves with the comfort level of those against whom they discriminate. I shall play a small violin and shed some crocodile tears for them…later.

      1. pirho

        I would think now that it has been revealed that Rory and Amy are the parents, and the hatred that this group of cleric’s sees for the Doctor, they wouldn’t imprison her for killing him.  Ergo, Rory must be the greatest man she ever knew.

  10. miss hartigan

    I loved the episode, just completely loved it.  The action, the rounding up of 11th’s army, and OMG !!!Rory!!!  Anywho, it was so awesome that at the moment logic evaded me until River Song revealed her true identity… then I thougth “CRAP, ENOUGH WITH THE FREAKING SOPA OPERA!!!”  I think this is the reason I so loved season 4 with Donna, a much welcome relief from the Rose/Martha Jones irritation.  Seriously, every great show as soon as they bring a baby into it, gets ruined until it’s out of the pic.  X-files and Angel are two that come to mind.  Luckily, Moffat does pull a lot of cool tricks to keep me from changing the channel. 

    Also, I can’t help to feel bad for QT Doc (11th), I feel he’s paying for 9th and especially 10th’s arrogance. 

    But I do so love River Song, all those sex jokes I have to sort of find a way to evade explaining to my kids ๐Ÿ˜‰  I love their chemistry…  BUT if the Doctor and River Song are traveling in opposite time lines, wouldn’t then the day the Doctor rescues Melody be the last time he’d ever see her as it would be the first time she’d meet him?  Also, why is it acceptable for River Song to reveal major spoliers but not ok for Amy to tell the Doctor he’s gonna die? 

    Which brings me to this, if the dead Doctor turns out to be a ganger, I will so not watch this show again (a total lie BTW), because it’d be like using gangers as a cop out.

    1. sgreco1970

      personally, I love this particular soap opera. Ive been having much fun chewing into the clues about river and watching the development of rory and amy’s relationship.

      However, concerning River’s freedom to inject spoilers: She knows how it all plays out -its her past. If she’d told Amy that she was melody when they first met, for instance, Amy might’ve been totally freaked out and never married rory, thus negating river’s own existence. But once the baby was taken away, she knew nothing she said to amy could change what happened next and so she was free to do so.

      I too hope the doctor we see die turns out to actually be him, altho I would want him to somehow return (possibly the same way the Master did after he was bruned on a funeral pyre). Then again, what’s really going on in the Impossible Astronaut is: The Doctor is being killed by the weapon eyepatch-lady made; River-in-a-spacesuit while Amy-ganger watches (and eyepatch watches thru amy-ganger’s eyes). Eyepatch was so delighted when she got to tell the Doctor he was folled by gangers twice -it might just be poetic justice if she was fooled by one as well ๐Ÿ˜‰

  11. sgreco1970

    They can’t possibly raise their child. Altho we do see a photo of amy and her baby in river’s childhood room at creepy oaks children insani-hauntium, we clearly see she is not being raised by her loving mum and dad. While all this works out neatly plotwise, its really a tragedy for Amy and Rory and I wouldn’t blame them a bit if they never spoke to the Doctor again. How will Moffat deal with this, I wonder? The two deserve better and frankly all of the Doctor’s companions really do need to start being cut a break. Donna, Rose, Mickey, now Amy and Rory (heck has this been going on since Adric?) all of his companions end up bummed out, disturbed, dead, trapped in another dimension -basically have their lives tossed in the can because of some adventure with the friendly ol’ doctor. He really does need to change, River is right -and I hope we see it. Adventure, helping strangers, righting wrongs -yes, but all this collateral damage really does have to end. Its getting depressing.

    1. miss hartigan

      I was just thinking the same thing.  Seems the price to pay for being a companion is getting higher and higher.  somehow when Sarah Jane said “somethings are worth getting your heart broken for.”  She didn’t imagine this ๐Ÿ˜‰

  12. Gerard McGarry

    Guys (and gals), you know I love chatting Doctor Who with you – the conspiracy theories, what we love and hate about the show and trying to predict how storylines are going to work out.

    If I can wear my “creator of Shout” hat for a minute – is there anything else we can be covering here that you’d like to see? Are there any other shows like Doctor Who that you’d love to see covered on Shout?

    Are there any features that you’d like us to add to the site – I’d love to hear from you. Drop me a reply to this comment or a private message if you’ve got any suggestions!

    Thanks everybody – and it’s been enjoyable talking to you all as usual about Doctor Who ๐Ÿ™‚

    1. sgreco1970

      I must take a second to thank you for this wonderful internet home for Whovian conspiratorial blather. I wouldn’t enjoy the show half as much without it.

      That said, to be fair, I’m not sure there’s another sure worthy of our natterings right now (though if the vague rumors of River getting her own TARDIS and a spinoff turn out to be true, you can bet I’ll be front and center for that one.)

      I think this is plenty for me, though I do wish we could come up with something to absorb our attention until the new season begins; something Whovian. Maybe some group fiction writing or something? I just don’t know.

    2. Emperor Gregor

      I’d like to second sgreco’s thanks. Having this discussion group’s made this half of the series such fun.

      Gwen and Captain Jack are back in the Dr Who spin off series 4 of Torchwood (anagram of Dr Who) on in the UK between the two halves of Dr Who, starting in July, for 10 weeks. (the Torchwood institute set up by Queen Vic in Tennant’s time). There’s a preview on YouTube. See 

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A2L7UtaeD4

      Not sure if it’s going to America, though it’s an American co-production. But if not, I’m sure you’ll find a way around it. RTD (the writer) says it’s darker than the first series (which were dark enough). The team get arrested and taken to America in episode 1, though it’s still very Cardiff and shot in Wales, like Dr Who.

      1. sgreco1970

        I think its ending up on an obscure cable channel here that not everyone gets so I might not be able to see it through normal methods. Might have to go back to finding pirate DVDs at conventions. *sigh*

        1. Emperor Gregor

          Just checked Amazon.com (the US site). It costs 99c an episode. 

          And I have just remembered an interesting fact about the new series – which may or may not be significant, bearing in mind it’s the Dr Who team putting the show together. It’s called “Everything Changes”. Probably nothing to do with River’s quote. RTD has promised us “a whole different Torchwood”. If the Torchwood Institute is destroyed, and they all get arrested and shipped to the US I suppose it does change.

  13. Emperor Gregor

    Ohh.  Where did you hear that? I’d love River to have her own Tardis. That would so be one way around the “Dr Who can’t possibly ever be a woman” problem.

    1. sgreco1970

      I don’t recall, but it sure would be awesome. I’d happily watch that. Alex Kingston brings so much to the character. I’d like to see a younger version of herself on Doctor Who having the full romance with the Doctor for several seasons and then at the same time have Alex playing River in a TARDIS on a spinoff with her own companions. I think it interesting that she’s, bar none, the first companion (and certainly first romantic companion) that’s ever been so completely embraced by the fans -I’ve not yet heard a single “bah, I hate River” comment. Alex is pure class and talent.

      1. Emperor Gregor

        Wouldn’t they dovetail beautifully. Alas, they are already doing it with John Barrowman’s Captain Jack character. I doubt they’d get the budget.

        Still, you never know.

  14. anbarium

    In light of River’s reveal as Amy and Rory’s daughter, and with the possibility as the Doctor’s spacesuit-clad murderer, I thought it was interesting that the first time we met River Song in “Silence of the Library” she was in a space suit.  I have so many thoughts rattling through my head about where the story will end up.  Need to watch the episode again.   I’m looking forward to this entire puzzle being explained though I’m worried that everything will turn out to be some elaborate dream sequence brought on by the Dream Lord — that would be absolute piss.

  15. The Time Lord Victorious

    Hi, I’m new here, and pretty new to DW. Watched all the series in the past 2 1/2 months….

    As for the identity of the Good Man, I find this exchange potentially revealing:
    The Doctor: I’ve become angry. That’s new. I’m really not sure what’s going to happen now.
    Kovarian: The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules.
    The Doctor: Good men don’t need rules. Today’s not the day to find out why I have so many.

    He himself suggests he is not a good man. So who’s perspective is the title written from? If it’s the Doctor’s, the Good Man surely isn’t him. But I’m not sure I’m totally convinced that Rory really “went to war.” Yes he fights, but he is not the commander in chief. The Doctor calls the shots.

    And the astronaut…no one has yet suggested that it’s Doctor’s and River’s child? (Though I shudder to think about that!)…it wouldn’t explain River’s “Of course not…” but it would explain her having no memory of it. Unless we go with the whole traumatic suppression thing….

    1. Emperor Gregor

      I did think the person in the astronaut suit might be the Doctor and River’s child but it’s only one of a few really interesting options.

      I think the “of course not” comment is because the suit was so strong it amazed everyone that the child broke out of it. So I think – of course – it would be bullet proof. The interesting fact is that River knew enough to say “of course not”.

      One really interesting theory was told to me by a friend – it’s about Amy and Rory. The doctor, when he saw Amy as a child, said about the crack in the universe: “two areas of space and time that never should have met, never have touched.” The most important day of the universe is Amy’s wedding day. The idea is that Amy and Rory should never have met. The interesting question is why. They play Rory down an awful lot but he’s clearly important. He’s also the really good example of the good man who doesn’t need any rules. He’s the one who said they should not kill the lizard people, for the simple reason it isn’t right. 

      I’d like to get a good look at his watch. He’s a nurse. Close enough to “doctor”? If there’s a third doctor floating around, as I’ve speculated before, I bet it’s Rory – a doctor from another space time continuum with a cameleon circuit. They should never have met because he hasn’t met and killed his own grandmother – the old paradox joke – but (provided an organisation as po-faced as the Beeb would allow such a story line) he could well have married her. 

      My friend thinks Rory could be the Master with the drums removed After all, he was a good guy at the end of the universe (played by Derek Jacobi) until he opened the watch and became his evil self again and regenerated into John Sims (come back, please). I don’t think Rory is the Master. That would be repeating themselves, and Moffat wants to do his own thing anyway. He isn’t planning to bring the Daleks back for a while either.

      Think of all those speeches Amy has made where we think she’s talking about the Doctor, and it’s Rory she means, including in Demon’s Run. If Rory is the doctor from another dimension he could kill himself to end the paradox.

      1. Gerard McGarry

        I seem to remember seeing footage of the girl in the spacesuit after Amy shot at her – was it in the creepy room in the foster home? – and the top right of the helmet’s visor looked to be cracked with a bullethole in the middle. Might be worth looking again – I think what happened was that Amy shot as a reflex, but missed because she’s obviously got no experience with guns.

  16. Emperor Gregor

    I’ve had a few thoughts about River and any child she might have.

    If she and the Doctor have a child, I don’t think it survives all this. Think about the end of Library/Forest. She’s in the perfect world, and has children to care for. She reads them a bedtime story about how everybody dies, and nobody knows it like the doctor. But when the Doctor comes to call, everybody lives. Then she says goodnight and turns out the light.

    At the time we just think “of course they do, because you died and he gave you this life, in the CAL mainframe.

    In CAL they have every book in the world to play with. If River wanted she could continue having as many adventures as she liked. What does she do? Bring up kids.

    Significant, or what? 

  17. Emperor Gregor

    If the Doctor thinks Amy was substituted with her Avatar before America, how much before?

    If it weren’t for the fact that Karen G’s young cousin played Amy I’d wonder if the Amy Pond we know was actually the young Amelia Pond at all, or a substitute, or even the avatar. If the cracks in the universe, including the one in Amy’s room, start when her daughter is born,  that might be what brought the Tardis to her door. The “Tardis” did say in the Doctor’s Wife that she took the Doctor where he needed to be, after all.

    One thing that has bothered me since Demon’s Run is how anyone or anything would know that Rory and Amy might have had a child conceived in the Tardis. Or indeed how that might have resulted in a half Time Lord baby. But they clearly want a Time Lord – and any way they can get it.

    Some interesting possibilities

    a.  It is clear to Madam K and others that the baby was conceived on the Tardis and therefore they need to get their hands on the baby to get Time Lord DNA

    b. but they don’t just want Time Lord DNA because they keep her in that creepy house. So they don’t just want DNA but a fully grown Time Lord.

    c. THIS IS THE 64 000 DOLLAR QUESTION.  Do they need an almost Time Lord or a Real Time Lord. It’s been speculated that Melody is a villain brought up to kill the doctor. What if ….

    … what if Melody has been brought up not to meet and kill the Doctor but to marry the Doctor. It isn’t Melody Madam Kovarian and the others want. It’s a Real Time Lord. They can’t get at the Doctor’s DNA so the next best thing is the long game – grow your own. Bring someone up to seduce and marry the doctor and have his baby and then get hold of that baby.

    Maybe the baby in the suit isn’t Melody – a lot of people have been wondering why she doesn’t remember the event if it’s her. She wouldn’t if it’s the daughter she had taken from her by Madam Kovarian and company.

    That’s a dark enough ending for Moffat, isn’t it. Maybe River and 1103 plan their own long game afterwards to rewrite Time and prevent Madam Kovarian getting hold of their child.

    Don’t ask me why 1103 has to die in this scenario. But I suspect it has something to do with resetting the regeneration clock or something, to get round the limitated number of regenerations.

  18. Emperor Gregor

    Some people have wondered about Amy in the past, and if she was who and what she said she was. Why did she apparently have no parents? When they turned up, were they her real parents? Was she adopted?

    I’m starting to wonder about Rory and if he might be a Time Lord in hiding behind a Cameleon arch. He has such a strong sense of morality. He could be the doctor from another dimension.

    On the other hand, if he’s River and the Doctor’s child then he has reason to be hiding so deeply he can’t even remember who he is. 

    When did Rory come into being. Alas, my V+ box died and I lost all my recordings.

    Can someone tell me – when the little girl regenerated, what was the date? 

    To get past the paradox of Rory marrying his own grandmother – and past the censors – not only Rory but Amy have to be something other than they appear to be.

    My head hurts. In a nice kind of way.

    And I’m mean minded enough to think Moffat didn’t want a nice cliff hanger in the middle of the series. He needed the time slot right in the middle of filming Dr Who so he could film Sherlock, and we got stuck with this long, long, long, long wait.

    So I suppose we should all Carry On Speculating. One of us could well come up with the right answer. And it’s more fun than just waiting.

    1. pirho

      Amy’s parents were taken from her memory because of the crack in her wall.  If you remember anyone that came in contact with it, was instantly erased from history.

       

      When the Doctor rebooted the universe rory, and Amy’s parents all came back into existance.

       

      As for the little girl, I think she fist regenerated in 1969

      1. The Time Lord Victorious

        Okay, why didn’t Amy get erased from history? The crack was in her room, so close to her. Why didn’t she get sucked in? And supposedly her parents get sucked in…but not her? That doesn’t quite hold up. You could say the crack wasn’t severe enough in her wall to suck her in, but it got her parents….

        Now I’m starting to seriously consider Amy’s existence. Amy is the girl who waited, the girl whose life doesn’t make sense…..could she somehow be created out of The Doctor’s mind? (Plus, she’s ginger LOL)…Really though…I think it may not be Rory or River Song or the Doctor we should be questioning, but Amy.ย 

        1. pirho

          According to the doctor she and the rest of them were an anomoly.  It doesnt suck you in unless you touch it, and maybe she never touched it.

          1. The Time Lord Victorious

            Didn’t the Doctor touch it though, in the beginning when he didn’t know what it was? I can’t remember…don’t have my DW files with me. Also, the Doctor stuck his hand in the crack and pulled out a piece of the TARDIS. Is it because he’s an amazing Time Lord that it doesn’t affect him? ย Or because he is somehow related to the crack’s creation, so he couldn’t get sucked in or else the cracks would never appear? Whole time paradox thing makes my head hurt.

            Moffat! *shakes fist*

  19. Emperor Gregor

    For those who don’t know it’s a telethon for charity, and Dr Who usually contributes.

    I am sure I remembered that the payoff for this clip is in series 6 of Dr Who. I’m sure it was this clip. The point is – at the end there’s 2 of all three of them. Which would answer a lot of questions.  See:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51JtuEa_OPc&feature=related

    If I’m wrong it’s very funny anyway. It’s in 2 parts. 1. Space.  2. Time.

  20. msbeadsley

    I think they are (it is) more severe some times we see them than at other times. In The Time of Angels, a flock (choir? forest? batallion?) of angels are sucked up. In Amelia’s room, it’s just a crack that could be in the plaster. Maybe we need to go back and study each ep where they appear, and figure out things like where in time they occur, and who is around, and what they’re doing.

    Does anybody else remember Star Trek Next Gen, the episode where it was discovered that warp travel was messing with other parts of the universe in a bad way? (Cue ominous music…)

  21. msbeadsley

    I remember a terrifying scene from a Hammer film where Dracula was reconstituted using the blood of an innocent and his ashes. I’m inclined to believe the hand is the ganger Doctor’s, and somehow he’s doing something similar, bit by bit. (Remember there was a mention or two of how his blooey!death need not be the end?)

    I reread this. I did not meant to imply the Doctorganger was using the blood of an innocent or anything; it’s the coming back from nothing, layer by layer (it was really creepy) I was remembering.

    And while I’m back here: River is a weapon, originally aimed at the Doctor. What have we seen her do? Well, in the Library’s silence she sort of teased him to become the man armies turn and flee from and who could open the Tardis with a snap of his fingers. In the last episode we saw, she castigated him for pretty much the same thing. I can’t stop thinking of Merlin and his passion for Nimue, who was really only interested in learning his magic, and who eventually trapped him in a cave. And he knew it was coming (many legends say he lived his life backwards), and let it happen anyway. He loved her that much.

  22. sgreco1970

    well, out of curiosity i took a sound recording of the voice from pandorica p1 that says “silence will fall” and played it after davros speaking in Journey’s end.

    It is the exact same voice.

    1. Emperor Gregor

      I agree. As soon as I heard it I thought I recognised the voice. 

      Of course, while it might be the same actor, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the same character. Martha Jones was once upon a time a lowly computer tech under the Master’s control (I think it was).  Unless she was a secret agent or regenerated, or something. Or they might have thought “that’s a nice creepy voice, let’s use it again”.

  23. Emperor Gregor

    I’ve just seen Liverpool University continuing education programme for this autumn. On Saturday November 4 they are holding a one-day seminar on:

    A Case For Character: Tracing the Lives of Dr Who

    “focussing on his character since 1963 and his place in the popular imagination as an icon of British Science Fiction, along with an exploration of the larger meta-narrative and fan fiction”

    How about that! Push for a course in your area. Details on p25 of the prospectus, found online at:

    http://www.liv.ac.uk/conted/Website/2972_Continuing_Education_AW_web.pdf

     

  24. zappy wagner mk 2

    HI EVERYONE – I AM AN XFACTOR REJECT AND I WOULD LIKE YOU PEEPS OUT THERE TO GET ME ON THE TV ADD BREAKS SEEN AS I COULDNT GET ON THE SHOW!!

     

    I auditioned this year dressed as Wagner and appeared to be doing really well getting through to the 3rd audition at the initial first auditions in cardiff. I was chosen to perform in front of the crowd., had one on one interveiw with Dermot O Leary and they even filmed my friends in the waiting room after doing promotional filming too. Unfortunatley because i didnt learn my songs very well and cracked up in front of the main 3rd audition, I was rejected!!!

     

    I will try again next year but prepared however to help raise my profile i would love to get on the talk talk adds strutting my stuff so Mr O leary and company will have a flash back and remember me!

     

    What i require is for anyone who is a member of facebook or twitter to click on this link, watch the silly dance clip i recorded with talk talk and vote for me please using the vote button provided on the screen. i only have a few days left to get my votes in and hopefully i will get on the adds for all to see!

     

    http://xfactor.talktalk.co.uk/watch/7d54e70eb5326b2c7127762513a8c336

     

    Many thanks to all who helps, ill put a shout out for you in the future if you leave a message saying you have done this for me.

     

     

     

    Regards Karl.

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